Curse

Hockster · Mar 01, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

You can only trust people over the internet so much. I was in a popular guild, supposedly based on trustworthiness. One of the more respected members turned out to be a cheat, liar and thief. All in all, he got six accounts banned.

Xeeron · Mar 01, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Why have a guild bank, when gold is mostly irrelevant in GW. The "basic" items you need (any max armor, any max damage weapon, id kit) are incredibly cheap in GW. All you need money for is vanity items like mini-pets, good looking armor, etc.

A loan only makes sense if getting the loan helps you advance at the game faster, but it doesnt. It only lets people get vanity items earlier.

- Xeeron

PS: @Herbalizer: I'd much prefer my children to get their first experience with loan sharks at the age of 13 here (where defaulting is extremely easy and doesnt carry negative consequenses) than at the age of 19 in some dark alley. Interest is a fact of life, the earlier you understand how it works, the better.

Prometheus8703 · Mar 01, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

Another downfall i thought of was the issue of kicking people, if a player acts like a jerk or commits kick worthy offences but has taken out a large loan what do you do?

allow him to stay in guild to get gold back? or kick him and lose gold you lent him?

If someone has committed act that is worthy of kicking, then they are kicked regardless of how much money they owe the bank. If the bank loses money so be it. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeeron

Why have a guild bank, when gold is mostly irrelevant in GW. The "basic" items you need (any max armor, any max damage weapon, id kit) are incredibly cheap in GW. All you need money for is vanity items like mini-pets, good looking armor, etc.

A loan only makes sense if getting the loan helps you advance at the game faster, but it doesnt. It only lets people get vanity items earlier.

In many instances, loans from the bank have been to fund green items, 15k armor, or the like. Several of our newer players have used loans to help pay for Droks armor (or equivalents). These are just some examples, but you are right that the bank is most often used to get vanity items. Essentially, the bank is designed for the casual player that wants to get some nicer stuff, whether they be a new Guild Wars player or a veteran who doesn't feel like spending a couple weeks making 15k.

blood4blood · Mar 01, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I see no need for a guild bank personally, but if you're going to do it, I would suggest you protect yourselves just as real banks do, with collateral. For example, maybe allow loans up to a small amount (probably 5-10k) without collateral, but anything larger would require the player to deposit something of value with the "bank" that he/she would not get back until the loan was paid off in full. That way you can protect yourself and impart some additional real-life lessons at the same time. I'd imagine good collateral items would be minipets, dyes, ectos and other rare mats, etc. -- things they don't need to make money (let them keep their armor & weapons) but you could re-sell to make the bank's money back.

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 01, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

lol, after its just 10k, I allways loan people amounts of 1-15k and rarely expect it to return, sometimes it does, if not owell, i have helped someone...I will however instantly kick beggars from the guild, Our alliance has between myself and one of the [RPG] founders around 1000-6000 of all common mats and 100-300 of the rares(bareing ectos-rubys-etc.) we regularly found new armor for new players and sometimes 3-4 months down the road they pay us back. So good luck with your guild bank and Have fun

ischuros · Mar 01, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Emmm, I'm pretty sure you cannot argue usury when the currency you're talking about isn't legal tender. The fact is that gold in GW is just as valuible as monopoly money. If you're playing monopoly you might lend some money to someone at 25% interest. I'm pretty sure they wont get the feds to come bust your a@@. And if they did, i wonder what the police would say

Lord Zado · Mar 01, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I'm in the "I don't really see the need for it" camp. If someone in your guild needs money for something, can they not just ask one of your more wealthy officers directly?

The whole idea of a loan doesn't really help either. For example, I would only borrow 10k if I didn't already have the 10k. So now I get my shiny new item sooner than I normally would have, but now I am forced to grind my butt off to repay the loan. On top of that, I have to pay interest. Just takes the fun out of it.

In my guild, we're all fairly well off, but we've gotten some newer members of late. We just give them decent greens and such so they are well equipped. Also, we'll give them materials for armor if needed. Most of us have so many mules with materials and random items, it's no sweat. I couldn't imagine asking someone to repay the "loan" though.

NoChance · Mar 02, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I don't think it's usury... according to the description, the interest rates are not really rates -- they are fixed.. if you borrow 1000 gold, the most you will have to pay back is 1200 gold if you are late in your payments -- that's how I read the description.

Chilly Ress · Mar 02, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Maybe I missed it, but, how long does said member have to pay back the loan?

Prometheus8703 · Mar 02, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

Maybe I missed it, but, how long does said member have to pay back the loan?

They have as long as they think they need (within reason of course) to repay the loan. I ask them how much time they need to remake the money when they take the loan out.

Eviance · Mar 02, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

We have a guild storage account. All officers within trust have access to it. It holds various materials and runes. Where money is concerned, I loan as much as I think the person is trustworthy enough for. If I think the person likely wont give it back then I do not loan over 20k because it's more than likely a sunk cost.
I never charge interest I just ask that they return the favor when someone is in need. There is usually never a time limit on payback and most of what I loan is forgotten over time so its nice when one of my guildies comes up to me 2mths later and goes "Oh hey I finally have enough to pay you back!"
Runes and materials are not asked for, but they are excess if someone doesn't mind handing them over. They are used to help less fortunate guildies or on occassion random people who cannot afford to make their armor and so forth.
In our guild you get at least as much as you give usually more and I make sure of that.

Personette · Mar 02, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

These rates are better than what most credit card companies will offer you, since the interest isn't monthly or compounded. Any 18 year old can go get himself a visa, mastercard, amex, etc., and start racking up the debt, and interest rates go from 0% (special offer!) to 30% (for people who forgot to pay the minimum).

Why forbid an underage kid from taking out a loan in guild wars fake money? Build up good habits early, so that when you're finally dealing with real money your credit cards are doing you a service instead of the reverse.

The people who complain the most about usury are the ones who've defaulted on their loans...or who want a good excuse to default.

HardWonFame · Mar 02, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

The only reason that our guild uses this bank system instead of a free communal pot is due to the large number of mid-range players in the guild. We have a few wealthy members, but not enough to just randomly give away what everyone needs.

The largest advantage of the system is that it is self-sustaining, it is always there and guild members can always draw from it whenever they need to afford something on the spot, buy someone a last minute winter's day gift (secret Santa), afford a few more expensive materials for armor or whatever comes up.

Borrowing something is always a trade-off of "do I get it now and pay it off later, or do I wait until I can afford it myself?"

Taking out loans from our guild bank is done mostly by the mid-range players, those with a few level 20's, who have not done much farming and are working on new builds, ascended armor, and funding their own new characters with higher level armor at low levels.

A guild bank probably does not work well in quite a few situations, and giving someone what they need is probably better, but why give something away when you can build trust in someone and possibly teach them something by setting up a trust-based institution like this?

Blackest Rose · Mar 02, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

My Guild doesn't allow selling to guildmates - one of the reasons I like it.
There's lots of people willing to give you stuff and likewise you feel good when you give stuff away.

Guild bank - don't need one....

Shmanka · Mar 02, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I have a character in my account that holds all the dyes, with the exception of white, silver, and black. Any member who has donated can ask for dye when they want to test/preview/experiment/ actually dye their armors. Thats... as far as it goes.

VanDamselx · Mar 02, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I think this is a great idea for those who may have a guild with personal friends or trustworthy members. My guild doesn't have an official system, but it is small and we help each other out when we can.

As for the whole argument on kids under 18 being subjected to this, I don't think this is a bad thing to be exposed to at all. If anything, this is something they could use as a learning experience. Set aside by individual donations, interest would allow the guild to give out more money (this is how banks "create" money). If this were distribution of porn or something, I could totally understand the whole "under 18" thing. And besides, who knows if they have age requirements.

The only thing I did somewhat agree with is if there were time constraints and a kid had to pay back his loan and farmed instead of doing his homework, that could cause some issues. But since the OP said there is not, this isn't really a big deal.

The Herbalizer · Mar 03, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by booooYA

I think this is a great idea for those who may have a guild with personal friends or trustworthy members. My guild doesn't have an official system, but it is small and we help each other out when we can.
As for the whole argument on kids under 18 being subjected to this, I don't think this is a bad thing to be exposed to at all. If anything, this is something they could use as a learning experience. Set aside by individual donations, interest would allow the guild to give out more money (this is how banks "create" money). If this were distribution of porn or something, I could totally understand the whole "under 18" thing. And besides, who knows if they have age requirements.

The only thing I did somewhat agree with is if there were time constraints and a kid had to pay back his loan and farmed instead of doing his homework, that could cause some issues. But since the OP said there is not, this isn't really a big deal.

Real life friends it would work and would be fine. However, it is an awful idea for anything other than real life friends. Please see this: -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

You can only trust people over the internet so much. I was in a popular guild, supposedly based on trustworthiness. One of the more respected members turned out to be a cheat, liar and thief. All in all, he got six accounts banned.

People who we were friends with from September 2005 - December 2006. Pretty long time huh? These people who everyone trusted so much people posted comments like, "he is so trustworthy I let him use my account etc". Millions of gold was entrusted to them. Seem like pretty trustworthy people huh? Fastforward to December 2006 turns out they broke the eula with ban worthy offences several hundred times, as Hockster said 6 accounts banned, accounts hacked in revenge, guild breaking up etc. Ive seen too many people screwed over by apparent long term close friends.

Could you please link to where it says the under 18s of the guild would not farm to repay debt which could lead to not doing homework etc. As all I have seen is a statement saying there are players as young as 14 in the guild.

I have nothing against the guild or players I just think the whole bank thing is a bad idea. I cant see why people couldnt just save for something.... At the end of the day I think it is better to make the guildies save for stuff than there be risk of big e-drama. ive experienced more than enough e-drama and it is really something you dont want occuring in a guild as it can destroy it

jimmy_logic · Mar 03, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

As long as it doesn't do hard by others and contravenes any Human Rights let people be with whatever system they have.

Theres to many double standards there are people here when someone says ANet sucks for nerfing they reply back its the metagame get on with it. Same case applies here if two parties are willing and understand and there are pretty much no repuccussions (sic) from what I can read so be it let them be.

VanDamselx · Mar 03, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

Real life friends it would work and would be fine. However, it is an awful idea for anything other than real life friends. Please see this: -

People who we were friends with from September 2005 - December 2006. Pretty long time huh? These people who everyone trusted so much people posted comments like, "he is so trustworthy I let him use my account etc". Millions of gold was entrusted to them. Seem like pretty trustworthy people huh? Fastforward to December 2006 turns out they broke the eula with ban worthy offences several hundred times, as Hockster said 6 accounts banned, accounts hacked in revenge, guild breaking up etc. Ive seen too many people screwed over by apparent long term close friends.

Could you please link to where it says the under 18s of the guild would not farm to repay debt which could lead to not doing homework etc. As all I have seen is a statement saying there are players as young as 14 in the guild.

I have nothing against the guild or players I just think the whole bank thing is a bad idea. I cant see why people couldnt just save for something.... At the end of the day I think it is better to make the guildies save for stuff than there be risk of big e-drama. ive experienced more than enough e-drama and it is really something you dont want occuring in a guild as it can destroy it

I totally see where you're coming from but I just don't believe it's as bad as you make it. I don't think the OP expects that this would work for all guilds, but that he is just sharing an idea. I 100% percent respect your opinion and everything you do for the GW community, but what I meant was since there are no time constraints, the kid in question may not have to farm his night away instead of doing homework.

I know what it's like to have a guild wrecked apart by some douche bags who look to screw everyone over, but if you have a good and close-knit guild, this is a good idea. I don't think every guild should implement this and should only do it if they feel it is appropriate.

HardWonFame · Mar 03, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

I agree with many of the concerns brought up in this thread in response to our guild banking system, but I fail to understand the concern over farming in order to pay off a loan.

There have got to be at least a dozen better reason to play guild wars and neglect homework then paying off a guild loan. Anyone who takes out a loan has no real commitment to pay it off, the OP suggests that they pay it back in a week or two with a single interest amount added. The OP has said on a few accounts that if someone takes advantage of the system and does not pay the loan back he will not really care.

This is a loose system, no real pressure applied to those who take out loans, only their own moral convictions as they apply to this virtual world. So far we have not had a single person skip out on a loan, with a few dozen loans taken out, I consider that to be pretty encouraging.